2025 BOARD NOMINEES & ELECTION PROCESS

Below are the nominees for the 2025 Board Elections. Select a nominee to view their biography and (optional) nominee statement.

You can also refer to the board member opportunity description and current board members. The five new board members will join our five remaining board members: Naiomi Murgatroyd, Valerie Love, Dr. Johnson Witehira, Tony Goddard, and Rachael Davies.

Caleb Gordon is Fundraising and Projects Coordinator at Arts Access Aotearoa, where he leads and supports strategic initiatives that strengthen access and equity in the arts. He works closely with national networks such as Arts For All and Creative Spaces, advancing accessibility, sector capability, and collaborative practice. Caleb has a background in art history, curatorship, and community development, and brings experience in developing events and conferences that connect practitioners and foster knowledge-sharing. His skills span fundraising, advocacy, and partnership development, with a focus on removing barriers and supporting diverse voices to be heard. Caleb values the role of networks in enabling innovation and resilience across the GLAM sector. He sees the National Digital Forum as a vital connector of institutions and communities and is excited to contribute his skills, networks, and inclusive perspective to its next chapter.

Nominee statement:
I am motivated to join the National Digital Forum Board because I believe the power of connection, collaboration, and knowledge-sharing across Aotearoa’s cultural and heritage sectors has never been more important. NDF plays a unique role as a national connector, bridging museums, libraries, archives, galleries, and creative practitioners—, nd I am passionate about contributing to its future direction.

As Fundraising and Projects Coordinator at Arts Access Aotearoa, I lead initiatives that strengthen inclusion, participation, and sustainability in the arts. My work spans national networks such as Arts For All and Creative Spaces, supporting community organisations and creative practitioners to build capability, visibility, and partnerships. I have also led the development of events and conferences that bring together practitioners, funders, and policymakers to explore new models of collaboration and social impact.

I bring more than a decade of experience across arts management, fundraising, communications, and strategic project delivery, alongside a background in art history and curatorial practice. My professional focus is on connecting people and ideas, building relationships that translate vision into impact. I have worked closely with organisations including Te Papa, Creative Capital Arts Trust, Circa Theatre, Ara Poutama Aotearoa, and national disability and community networks, developing an understanding of how digital engagement, storytelling, and inclusive practice can amplify voices and strengthen the cultural ecosystem.

I am drawn to the NDF’s mission to enhance New Zealand’s interaction with culture and heritage and to empower those shaping our digital and cultural future. Having been previously involved with the Forum as an ambassador I see particular opportunities for the Forum to continue broadening its reach, supporting greater inclusion of individuals, regional practitioners, and community-based organisations in national conversations.

I would bring to the Board a collaborative approach, strategic thinking, and strong skills in partnership development, fundraising, and event delivery. I am committed to helping sustain the NDF’s vital role as a convener and catalyst for innovation across the GLAM sector, ensuring it continues to reflect the diversity, creativity, and interconnectedness of Aotearoa’s cultural life.

As Digital Preservation Analyst at Archives New Zealand, I manage the ongoing configuration and maintenance of the Government Digital Archive, which houses over a million digitised and born-digital records. I liaise with teams and public offices to enable the digital transfer of government records with care and integrity, aiming to uplift the cross-sector knowledge base and public confidence when it comes to digital information management, transfer and preservation.

My academic background is in analogue archival practice, arrangement and description, which I’ve applied in a variety of environments that include libraries, special collections and corporate archives.

A proponent of lifelong learning and curiosity, I value the opportunities to engage, interact and educate that NDF provides the cultural sector; I’m continually appreciative of the Forum’s mission. I’ve had the pleasure of co-hosting workshops at previous NDF conferences on digital preservation essentials and capability, and it would be a great privilege to have the chance to try participating in a different light as a Board Member.

Catherine Leonard is Head of Library and Learning Services at Auckland Council Libraries | Ngā Pātaka Kōrero o Tāmaki Makaurau. With over 30 years’ experience in the library sector, both nationally and internationally, she has held roles across the Parliamentary Library, National Library, and various special and public libraries in New Zealand. Catherine spent 14 years with an international library software vendor, gaining expertise in sales, marketing, financial management, product development, and strategic partnerships. She holds a Diploma in Librarianship from Victoria University and an MSc in Information Science from University College London.

A consistent theme throughout her career is a passion for innovation and belief in technology’s power to enhance access to information. Her leadership has driven transformative digital projects, strategic change, and service development. Catherine oversees regional library services, including collections, technology, and research and heritage. She served on the NZLPP Governance Group (2020–2022) and is on Auckland Council’s Community Wellbeing Lead Team.

Nominee Statement:
With over 30 years of experience in the library and information sector, I bring a deep understanding of our ecosystem, a strong strategic mindset, and a passion for innovation and equitable access to information.

Currently, I serve as Head of Library and Learning Services at Auckland Council Libraries | Ngā Pātaka Kōrero o Tāmaki Makaurau, leading the regional delivery of collections, technology, engagement, and research and heritage services for the largest public library system in Australasia. I am part of the Lead Team in Auckland Council’s Community Wellbeing Department, where I contribute to departmental strategic direction and to multiple layers of internal and external collaboration.

My governance experience includes serving on the Governance Group for the New Zealand Libraries Partnership Programme (NZLPP) from 2020–2022, where I supported sector resilience and workforce development during a time of significant disruption.

Auckland Libraries has recently become a Kauri member of NDF and I see the opportunity to contribute meaningfully to the Board now – both to bring the perspective and opportunities of our large and unique Auckland service to the table, and to provide skills and experiences built over many years of service. I believe that through collaboration and the sharing of skills at a national level, we can amplify our collective impact across the GLAM sector. I am especially interested in the role of metadata, digital access, and customer-centred design in enhancing the reach and relevance of our institutions.

I would bring to the Board role a strong track record in strategic thinking, transformational change, and sector advocacy. My experience in both public and private sector environments has honed my financial acumen, political awareness, and ability to navigate complex stakeholder landscapes. I am deeply committed to the values of equity, inclusion, and lifelong learning, and I see GLAM institutions as vital enablers of these outcomes.

Emma Crozier (Ngāti Whātua, Ngāti Kahu) is an inspiring leader who brings depth and integrity to her role as Head of People, Culture, and Wellbeing at MOTAT. She is committed to embedding te ao Māori values across organisational culture and sector practice, bridging worlds by honouring tradition while driving innovation.

Emma has been instrumental in supporting MOTAT’s significant programme of change in recent years, particularly through strengthening the volunteer programme and advancing kaupapa Māori. She brings clarity and empathy to her work, empowering leaders and teams to embrace te ao Māori. Her leadership fosters environments where inclusivity and authentic connection thrive. At the heart of her approach is a deep commitment to genuine partnership with Māori and sustainable transformation that endures across people, culture, and organisational change.

Nominee Statement:
Tēnā koutou katoa

He uri ahau nō Ngāti Whātua, te Uri o Hau, hau kōwhaiwhai o Kaipara
He uri hoki nō Ngāti Kahu, te whānau Moana, taura e here ana i Muriwhenua
Me taku taha Pākehā nō Ingarangi, awa marino, whenua tawhito
Ko Emma Crozier tōku ingoa

NDF’s kaupapa resonates with me in that digital technologies illuminate pathways to genuine inclusion and connection, nurturing greater audience engagement in the cultural spaces we work in. My experience is in shaping business systems, frameworks, and structures that empower our people to embody manaakitanga, creating environments where meaningful connections thrive and cultural inclusion sits at the heart of every interaction.

With a background in leading people, culture, and wellbeing, I have seen the ongoing impact of embedding te ao Māori into organisational frameworks, not only in the way we work but also empowering teams to flourish and inspire our audiences. My focus remains steadfast on supporting leaders and teams towards authentic Māori partnership, influencing business practices to ensure genuine, sustainable outcomes for our sector.

As a board member, I would be committed to contributing a people-centred, values-driven approach that bridges the cultural and digital realms. I believe in advancing NDF’s mission to strengthen digital capabilities across the cultural sector, ensuring te ao Māori and inclusive practices are integral to innovation, accessibility, and storytelling in the digital space. I would be incredibly grateful to bring this lens to the Board and help shape NDF’s strategic direction into the future. 

Mauri ora ki a tātou!

Emma Philpott is passionate about helping the cultural sector work more collaboratively and maximise digital opportunities. Through Te Papa’s National Services Te Paerangi, she’s built up a wealth of experience in digital engagement, communications, resource development and growing digital networks. Emma is a natural communicator with a background in journalism, and she enjoys sharing her knowledge as a regular presenter at sector conferences. She’s also the product owner for the Kōtuia Ngā Kete collections aggregation website, where she helps make collections held in New Zealand collections more accessible to everyone.

Emma’s strengths in project management, partnership building, and strategic thinking make her a great fit for the National Digital Forum Board. She’s collaborative, understands the GLAM sector deeply, and is well-placed to support the Board’s work in governance, fundraising, and audience development. Emma’s positive approach and expertise would be a real asset as the Board looks to the future.

Nominee Statement:
Tena koutou katoa, ko Emma Philpott toku ingoa.

I stepped into the GLAM sector a decade ago as an interested outsider with a strong suite of communication skills and a large dose of tech curiosity. Through my current role at National Services Te Paerangi, and in particular championing the Kōtuia ngā Kete platform, I have a sharp line of sight into the importance of building digital capability across all of our culture and heritage institutions, and the value of moving collectively.

I’m excited about the potential to enact change and continual incremental improvement in practice through areas such as the NDF Conference and professional development streams and would be committed to ensuring that NDF is well placed to help the sector move with agility through the digital future.

Heidi Schlumpf led the Digitisation programme at Hui Te Ananui a Tangaroa New Zealand Maritime Room from September 2020 to June 2025 as part of a Lotteries & Environment funded & co-funded by Tataki Auckland Unlimited Digitisation programme.

Heidi revised and established systems, policies, standard operating procedures and created digitisation studios both mobile and permanent. She recruited and developed a team of five including imaging and records specialist team to complete digitisation to a high standard so the records are robust and will survive long term.

The Digitisation programme has amassed over 150,000 high-quality high-resolution image and over 300.000 files from 36,000 museum collection objects. The online collection has received over 90,000 views and 22,000 unique visitors in the past 12 months. When core funding ceased, new funding was sought to establish outreach to Warkworth Museum, the Charlotte Museum & Howick Historical Village. The work at these museum’s trained staff and volunteers and established digitisation studios for ongoing work.

Heidi’s leadership, collegiality and can-do approach would add significant skills and expertise to the Board of the National Digital Forum.

Joshua Ng is a Digital Preservation Analyst at the Archives New Zealand, specialising in digital audiovisual preservation. He is responsible for digital preservation system strategy and ensuring processes are in place to enable the long term preservation of trusted government information.

For the past 5 years, he has been heavily involved with Utaina, a multi-agency large-scale at-risk audiovisual magnetic media digital preservation project. He informed procurement, designed and implemented digitisation workflows, quality control (QC) and validation processes.

Joshua is also a core team member of the working committee for IASA TC-07: Guidelines for the Preservation of Born Digital Video, and an SEAPAVAA Executive Council member. In 2022, he worked with AMIA to programme their Continuing Education Open Source AV Tools Online Series. During the pandemic lockdown, Joshua has co-facilitated "Bash for Archivists" courses to international audiences. In 2024, he was invited by Getty Conservation Institute to participate in the Time-based Media Experts meeting. For his contribution to the field of audiovisual preservation, in 2024, Joshua was the recipient of the Lars Gaustad Award by International Association of Sound and Audiovisual Archives (IASA).

Joshua is also a regular at the conference circuit, he has spoken at ALGIM, Fantastic Futures (AI4LAM), IASA, iPRES, LIANZA, Restoration Asia, SEAPAVAA.

Krissy Taylor is a leader in audience engagement across the arts, culture, and heritage sector, with over 20 years' experience at leading institutions. These include Ngā Pātaka Kōrero Auckland Council Libraries, Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tāmaki, Howick Historical Village, London’s Garden Museum, and Zandra Rhodes’ Fashion and Textile Museum. She is passionate about transforming how audiences discover, experience, and engage with the cultural sector.

In her current role as Manager Libraries Public Engagement at Ngā Pātaka Kōrero Auckland Council Libraries, she leads teams delivering successful partnerships, public programmes, and learning experiences that aim to increase digital literacy, digital equity, and strengthen community engagement. In this role, Krissy has created inclusive, audience-focused strategies that connect diverse communities with collections, exhibitions, and experiences.

Krissy understands the need for cultural organisations to be audience-led, digitally innovative, and socially responsive. To this end, Krissy offers expertise in storytelling, immersive online experiences, and interactive learning platforms that increase access and create meaningful participation.

Nominee Statement:
I'm a Senior Arts, Culture, and Heritage Leader with over 20 years of experience working in the GLAM sector, including my current role at Ngā Pātaka Kōrero |Auckland Council Libraries, and previous positions at Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tāmaki, Howick Historical Village, the Garden Museum in London and Zandra Rhodes’ Fashion and Textile Museum. My career has involved working across visitor experience, retail operations, public programming, learning, and general management.

I have a broad range of skills and expertise to offer NDF including:

  • Strategic Planning: I’ve developed strategic frameworks for Ngā Pātaka Kōrero and led departmental planning at Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tāmaki, aligning team goals with organisational strategy.

  • Governance skills: As General Manager of Howick Historical Village, I reported directly to the board which gave me a good understanding of its governance responsibilities, in particular setting the tone for the strategic direction and success of the organisation.

  • Funding and Revenue Generation: At Howick Historical Village, I successfully increased funding streams by 85%, securing a $500,000 grant from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. Increased revenue by 196% at Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tāmaki.

  • Audience Engagement and Development: I’ve led initiatives to analyse audience data, identify growth opportunities, and implement strategies to increase engagement and visitation. This includes designing inclusive programming and evaluating impact.

  • Event Planning and Project Management: I have extensive experience organising and managing large-scale events such as conferences, symposia, and workshops.

  • Visitor Services: in-depth knowledge of best practice in visitor services, including front-of-house operations, customer experience, and accessibility.

I'm excited about the opportunity to contribute to NDF and to support its mission of increasing digital capability and leadership within Aotearoa’s cultural sector.

Nils is a creative director and digital strategist with more than 20 years’ experience in digital and over a decade working inside museums and cultural institutions. He has held in-house digital leadership roles at Auckland Museum Tāmaki Paenga Hira and Nelson Provincial Museum, where he led teams in projects spanning interpretation, emerging tech, and visitor experience. Nils has been part of the NDF whānau for years, having been an active contributor and presenter, and serving as a mentor in its 2024 Executive Digital Mentoring Programme.

As founder and director of the consultancy firm Cultureshock, he now helps GLAMs bridge the gap between cultural purpose and technological possibility through human-centred design and practical digital strategy. Known for connecting curators, designers, and technologists, Nils works with institutions across Aotearoa New Zealand and internationally to deliver sustainable, audience-focused digital transformation.

Nils brings to the NDF board a broad, cross-sector perspective shaped by experience in both national and regional museums, as well as the commercial sector. Based in Whakatū Nelson, he would bring strategic insight across governance, experience design, and visitor engagement, g rounded in a strong understanding of digital transformation within the GLAM sector. His background enables him to represent regional perspectives while contributing to NDF’s national vision for collaboration and digital capability.

Nominee Statement:
Kia ora whānau,

After many years of attending, speaking, workshopping, and supporting NDF in various ways (including the odd compulsory pub crawl) I am excited by the possibility of joining the Board and to give back to the GLAM sector that has been pivotal to my career. As those of you who know me will hopefully agree, I bring a wealth of multi-disciplinary experience across all aspects of digital transformation, strategy, and engagement. Having worked in organisations with very large teams and budgets and those regional museums that have to make do with a fraction, I understand the realities they face, what challenges shape their thinking, and where digital has the potential to make a positive change. I've been through the digital museum hey-days and have ridden several hype-cycles and - while I'll forever be that optimistic and cheerful guy - can give sound and well-grounded advice and support where it's needed.

In continued times of societal, political, and digital disruption I want to do my part in helping lift the the conference to new heights, broadening the conversation, and growing the impact of the organisation. We need NDF now more than ever.

Thank you for your consideration.

Ngā mihi nui,

Nils

Rachel has extensive experience working in public programmes, where she has brought collections to life, ensuring all New Zealanders can access New Zealand's creative and cultural heritage. She complements this with a strong understanding of the Machinery of Government from her time working at Manatū Taonga. This combination of skills and experience makes her an ideal candidate.

Stephanie Lay is the Strategic Adviser at Ngā Taonga Sound & Vision, holding a portfolio of strategy, compliance reporting, business planning and risk management. As part of the management team, she is interested in the intersection of ethics, sustainability, technology and people in the workplace.

Stephanie has over 20 years of experience working across the public sector, including a number of complex change programmes. On joining Ngā Taonga in 2019 she established the Digital Transformation Programme to implement a people-centred approach to introducing new systems and improving business performance.

Aside from her professional commitments, Stephanie has held the position of Presiding Member for a local school Board and is a current Trustee for The Nest Collective. She holds a MA (Hons) in Mediaeval History from the University of St. Andrews. After more than 25 years living in Aotearoa, she agrees that you can’t beat Wellington on a good day.

Nominee Statement:
What I have enjoyed about NDF events has been the way my thinking has been challenged and inspired about where technology can take us. “A conference session on identifying Australian frog calls?? Thanks, but I work in an audiovisual archive!” And yet, the session wormed its way into my brain and started making some lateral connections. What makes my brain fizz is the way technology can push us to think differently about where we want to be and how we get there. The vision, the strategy and the possibility.

When I joined Ngā Taonga Sound & Vision, I was offered a couple of projects to manage (for noting, these were a Collection Management System and Customer Relationship Management System) but advocated to set up a Digital Transformation Programme so that the system changes formed part of a more holistic focus across the organisation. It was important to me that it put people at its heart. I continue to believe that digital change can only be successful when it is human-centred and focused on equitable outcomes.

I’ve spent a large part of my career working on complex change programmes, and have worked across multiple sectors. In my current role I get to dream a little about where Ngā Taonga could head and how we engage with audiences, communities and government to achieve that.

Ngā Taonga sits in a unique position in the sector: established as a charitable trust but funded predominantly by government. Our independence and small size has given us the ability to innovate and adapt to the rapidly changing environment around us. I’d like to share some of that with NDF and contribute to its mission of supporting the digital transformation and capability of the Aotearoa GLAM sector.

Tumuaki Māori, Auckland Museum since 2023.

Ka tū a Te Arepa ki te tihi o tōna maunga, ko Maungakiekie. Ka māhoi tana titiro ki te Waitematā e pari ana ki tōna whenua, ki Tāmaki Makaurau, te nohoanga o ōna Tūpuna.

E arahina ana te whare pupuri taonga nei e Te Arepa i te ao Māori. Ko tōna aronga nui kia piki ake tō Tāmaki Paenga Hira taha Māori, kia heru hāpaitia te reo Māori, ngā tikanga Māori, ngā mātauranga Māori.

Te Arepa leads the delivery of strategic Māori projects, activities and outcomes at the Museum. His focus is to grow Māori aspects within Tāmaki Paenga Hira including the Māori language, Māori protocols and Māori knowledge.

Te Arepa is a descendant from Te Taitokerau and from Ireland, where his whakapapa has provided an avenue to connect his Māori and pākeha sides. He brings his many experiences from his background in IT infrastructure (Spark), in banking (Westpac), and in the cultural sector (Auckland Art Gallery Toi o Tāmaki).

Te Arepa is extremely passionate about te ao Māori and is focused on being a voice for hapori and the taonga of his tūpuna within Tāmaki Paenga Hira.

Tracey Sim is Associate University Librarian at the University of Otago | Te Pātaka Mātauraka o Ōtākou Whakaihu Waka, based in Te Waipounamu South Island, where she leads the strategic direction for digital services and collections. Tracey has a background in libraries, archives and records management, digital transformation, and project governance.

Tracey serves on the Cambridge University Press Australian and New Zealand Library Advisory Board and Clarivate’s Books Advisory Subcommittee, contributing sector insights to global publishing and discovery platforms. She brings strong leadership in digital strategy, governance, and strategic planning.

Tracey is deeply passionate about NDF’s mission and committed to supporting a national network that strengthens digital engagement with cultural heritage across Aotearoa and is dedicated to advancing digital technologies and learning within heritage and academic contexts.

Nominee Statement:
Tracey Sim – Digital Thinker, Te Wai Pounamu-Based, Tangata Tiriti

Kia ora tātou! I’m Tracey Sim, a digital strategist and an advocate for the power of memory institutions as living systems—places where stories are told, communities are connected, and imagination is sparked. I believe in the power of digital technologies to amplify these voices and activate collections that resonate globally. Based in Te Wai Pounamu, I bring a South Island lens to the national conversation, grounded in a career spanning libraries, archives, records, and heritage collections.

As tangata Tiriti, I’m committed to honouring Te Tiriti o Waitangi in both principle and practice—ensuring bicultural approaches and partnership is embedded in the design and delivery of digital initiatives. As part of my personal journey, I’ve begun formal Te Reo Māori study to deepen my understanding and strengthen my ability to contribute meaningfully to building culturally grounded digital spaces.

I currently work as Associate University Librarian (Digital and Collections) at Ōtākou Whakaihu Waka | University of Otago, where I lead strategic initiatives across our collections and in digital preservation, discovery and delivery. I’m passionate about activating our rich cultural and heritage collections for a global audience—making them not just accessible, but alive.

I bring strong governance and strategic leadership experience. I’ve served as RIMPA Branch Council President, contributing to national-level records and information management advocacy and policy development. Currently, I’m working with CAUL colleagues across Aotearoa and Australia to establish a trans-Tasman community of practice for AI in academic libraries—focused on turning shared challenges into practical, reusable solutions that can be adopted now. These roles reflect my commitment to sector-wide thinking and shaping strategic directions that respond to both local and global challenges.

Why NDF? Because it’s the beating heart of Aotearoa’s digital heritage ecosystem. I want to contribute to its future—bringing a regional voice and an understanding of the sector’s challenges and opportunities. I’m eager to help shape what comes next—together.

THE ELECTION PROCESS

When will the elections be held?
As per our new constitution, board members will be elected during the NDF AGM on Thursday 20 November. This means that we will do a formal vote at the AGM.

Who can vote in the NDF Elections?
Individual NDF members and, as per our new constitution, a representative of each Nikau and Kauri member organisation. Your NDF membership must be active on the day of the AGM.

If you’re a current NDF member, you’ll receive reminder emails if your membership is about to expire. You can also login to our membership platform to check.

If you aren’t yet an NDF member, you can sign up before the NDF AGM to receive an invite and voting instructions.

What election system are we using and why?
We have a relatively small number of voters, who are voting for 13 candidates to fill five positions. Therefore we have chosen a system that is fairest for this particular scenario and is the least likely to involve ties: Meek STV (Single Transferable Vote). This is the same system used in the NZ Local Body Elections.

The software we use, Opavote, is designed for small to medium non-for-profits just like us and is run by a cooperative California-based organisation. It’s affordable, reliable, and secure. You can learn more about Opavote here. They also have a rather nerdy explainer page on the Meek STV system.

How will it work at the AGM?
At the beginning of the AGM, we will determine who is present at the meeting and how many members we will expect to have voting in the elections. A few people might need to vote twice, because they are both an individual member and authorised representative of another member.

When it’s time to vote, we will do a short demo of the voting platform, then share a link to vote with. You can use your mobile device (scanning a QR code) or laptop (clicking the link). 

After clicking the link, you will enter your unique code that has been sent to you via email.

You will then be presented with the list of candidates. Just like the local body elections, you must order the list of candidates, where your favourite candidate is in position one, your second favourite in position two, and so on. We encourage you to rank all candidates.

During the next agenda item, in the background, our two scrutineers will examine the vote and automatic vote count done by the Opavote system. We will also double check that:

  • The number of votes represented by members at the AGM, plus the number of proxy votes, is equal to the number of votes received

  • The members present at the AGM have used only the unique code(s) which they are authorised to represent.

This also means we can identify people if they vote without being present or having a pre-authorised representative at the AGM. 

As the penultimate agenda item of the board meeting, the five new board members will be announced (in no particular order).

What if I can’t attend the AGM? 
You can:

  • authorise a representative to attend and vote on your behalf

  • send us a signed written proxy with an MS word or PDF attachment containing your unique voting code and a numerical ordered list of candidates (the attachment will be sent to scrutineers and treated as your ballot)

In both of these instances, you must notify the NDF Secretary in writing before the meeting begins (although, we appreciate it if you do this a few days earlier). Email admin@ndf.org.nz with “For the NDF Secretary” in the subject line. 

What if I have more questions?
Email admin@ndf.org.nz and we’ll get back to you as soon as possible.